cocoaforge

Posted: **Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:39 pm**

Show and hide contact list was a nondeterministic, confusing menu item. You are the only person I've seen complain about its change to only show, if that's saying anything.

If you want the ability to close a nonstandard contact list, I suggest you submit a patch or write a trac request for a close button in nonstandard contact list windows. I'm sorry that the feature you liked was removed, and I'm sorry your usage habits don't reflect the menu. The show/hide alternation will not be returning in the status menu item.

You can open the contact list quickly (for when it's closed) by opt+clicking the status item and clicking "Contact List…". This will eventually be the right click menu.

Posted: **Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:04 pm**

zac wrote:Show and hide contact list was a nondeterministic, confusing menu item. You are the only person I've seen complain about its change to only show, if that's saying anything.

If you want the ability to close a nonstandard contact list, I suggest you submit a patch or write a trac request for a close button in nonstandard contact list windows. I'm sorry that the feature you liked was removed, and I'm sorry your usage habits don't reflect the menu. The show/hide alternation will not be returning in the status menu item.

You can open the contact list quickly (for when it's closed) by opt+clicking the status item and clicking "Contact List…". This will eventually be the right click menu.

You're wrong. Read this thread again and you will find at least another person complaining about hideing CL. And we are people able to find proper developer discussion forum. What about people who don't know where to find Adium developers. It's nice you have cool tech-word for loosing a feature. Why there is MenuBar icon at all? There is Dock icon you can stuff in with thousands duplicate buttons...

And again... you're offering me another way to SHOW CL... So again: there are many ways to SHOW CL, but none to HIDE CL.

So I'll have to look around for another IM client. Pitty. Maybe patched iChat will do the job...

Posted: **Sat Feb 02, 2008 3:12 pm**

The real problem here is you aren't presenting a valid counter argument for bringing it back. Threatening to jump ship to another client doesn't matter here, only valid arguments for having things return.

Stop jumping down his throat, remove the emotion, and think about a way that what you want is technically superior to the argument zac has presented. He's been trying to work with you folks, and you guys are not helping your situation when you have every opportunity to do so.

To be honest, I don't get the point of the menu item, so I don't care about this argument, but if I did I certainly wouldn't start off the way you have.

- Tick

PS Patching iChat isn't quite the easiest thing in the world, so it makes you sound foolish even saying something like that. But good luck if that's the sort of thing you want to do.

Posted: **Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:43 pm**

Code: Select all

tell application "Adium"
  -- This requires Leopard
  if it is running then
    tell window "Contacts"
      set visible to (not visible)
    end tell
  end if
end tell

Put this in your scrips folder and add the scripts to the menu bar and the toggle functionality will be available in the menu bar again, just under a different icon.

Posted: **Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:27 pm**

The_Tick: No. I tried to explain it several times. I described how it is useful to me (and not just to me). And response? "It's nondeterministic function and we will not add it back." So thank you.

I always thought Mac OS X GUI is easy to use and every program is much better designed to make user's life painless. So explain me, why EVERY stupid Windows messenger has function to toggle show/hide Contact List and Adium, which is supposed to be the best IM client ever, now lacks this feature?

And when I go to developers and ask them to return this feature back, all I got is you're trying to convince me I'm stupid and I don't understand what's best for me (because you think you know it). And then, when I seem to be unstopable asking for it, you'll say "submit a patch" to Adium. So if I Copy&Paste your pice of code from previous version, you'll be satisfied and I will have my function back? If yes, why you don't want to do it yourself? If no, why should I waste my time trying?

Compare right-click menu on Dock icon with MenuBar icon? How many functions are somehow redudant now? All of them?

I wasn't threatening I'll start using other client. I stated that. Would you use an app which is uncomfortable for you to use?

I really prefer using Mac OS X default apps, because they are well integrated with each other. I made exeption with Browser, because I use 80% of features of Opera. And I made exeption with IM client, because it's simply so good.

Unfortunately, feature I use 50+ times a day is now missing. I searched for developer's forum just to try to convince them it's bad decision but apparently there is no will to make some user happy. I'm really said about it.

mtimmsj: Nice, but I still have Tiger...

Posted: **Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:51 pm**

Code: Select all

-- This will work on both Tiger and Leopard
tell application "System Events"
  if application "Adium" is not running then error number -128
end tell

tell application "Adium"
  tell window "Contacts"
    set visible to (not visible)
  end tell
end tell

Posted: **Sun Feb 03, 2008 7:34 am**

nemo wrote:The_Tick: No. I tried to explain it several times. I described how it is useful to me (and not just to me). And response? "It's nondeterministic function and we will not add it back." So thank you.

That's the problem, you're trying to convince as to why just you should have it, whereas it's a problem of trying to convince as to why at least 80% of the userbase needs it.

There's some functionality we had that I loved (and still love) way back in the day. Basically it was great because it showed me exactly who I had an open im window with via the contact list, which I could (at the time) see from other applications. So if someone sent me a new IM, I could see it in the cl, and all sorts of stuff. This was deemed removeable, and it was removed. Here I am, the Project Manager of Adium telling you this, and yet it doesn't exist in Adium today.

It's not about what you need, it's about what the majority needs. As of right now, I agree with Zac, I think it's silly to have it for the majority, and that a very vocal minority are the ones wanting it back, but both he and I and all of the other developers are willing to listen to well typed reasoning for why to bring something back, or why to add something, or change things. That's how we got the Adium we have today.

nemo wrote:I always thought Mac OS X GUI is easy to use and every program is much better designed to make user's life painless. So explain me, why EVERY stupid Windows messenger has function to toggle show/hide Contact List and Adium, which is supposed to be the best IM client ever, now lacks this feature?

I don't care what other apps have, that shouldn't be a consideration at all. We should consider what's best for Adium based on that and that alone. Make sense?

nemo wrote:And when I go to developers and ask them to return this feature back, all I got is you're trying to convince me I'm stupid and I don't understand what's best for me (because you think you know it). And then, when I seem to be unstopable asking for it, you'll say "submit a patch" to Adium. So if I Copy&Paste your pice of code from previous version, you'll be satisfied and I will have my function back? If yes, why you don't want to do it yourself? If no, why should I waste my time trying?

I'd actually tell you to maintain your own third party plugin, since so far it has been rejected, but third party plugins are fine and dandy to have around.

nemo wrote:Compare right-click menu on Dock icon with MenuBar icon? How many functions are somehow redudant now? All of them?

If it were up to me, about 50% of the functionality we have in Adium would be gone, and almost all preferences would be gone. Just my opinion of course.

Anyhow, your question. These things perform different functionality for different types of users, so no, not redundant.

nemo wrote:I wasn't threatening I'll start using other client. I stated that. Would you use an app which is uncomfortable for you to use?

I wouldn't tell the app dev I'm switching because of xyz functionality if I'm not paying for it, I'd just switch. If it's shareware I'd say that, but if it's freeware they don't need to hear that, just switch but express your discontent in more effective ways.

You have to understand your market no matter which way. I would have done almost exactly what you did, except not mention that I'm switching to another app, and I would have explained my reasons to bring it back in a way that fit into the 80/20 rule, which would have been more constructive than just considering myself. But then again I'm probably a bit of a weird person.

nemo wrote:Unfortunately, feature I use 50+ times a day is now missing. I searched for developer's forum just to try to convince them it's bad decision but apparently there is no will to make some user happy. I'm really said about it.

If you can convince zac that it should come back, I'll back whatever decision he makes. So to me, he's the only person you have to convince for this to come back.

So figure out why he thinks it's a useless bit of feature, and then figure out how to counter that. He's friendly enough, so I'm sure he'll answer any questions you can come up with it. If he thinks that 80% of end users won't use it once, much less 50 times a day, then you have to understand that your use case is an edge-use case, which means that you fit into the 5% of users who this isn't catering to possibly, and you have to figure out a way to think outside of that corner you have backed yourself into.

I hope this helps you, I personally don't use the menu item, and I think zac has done well in helping to improve it, since maintainership is a big thing for it. Please be kind to him, and try to work with him to get this resolved for everyone. Think outside of the box, try to figure out if some functionality neither of you have thought of so far might be better than what you are wanting right now.

If you can think of something amazing, I'm sure zac will do it in a heartbeat. Just gotta figure out what that is.

- Tick

Posted: **Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:23 am**

I don't believe majority needs to have less and less functionality in new versions.

I thought Adium is there for people, who wants more functionality, than standard iChat has.

Adium is support-app. It means that nobody will buy a computer just to use Adium. People buy computers to use some absolutely different programs and they use Adium-like applications together with these main-apps. So Adium team should be focused to make Adium as cooperative as possible. That means people are working in some app and just jumps to Adium for few minutes and then jumps back. And these jumps should be effective. Now, they're not.

I spent too much time trying to explain why this function is importnant. Not just for me, but for others, who don't know about this forum, not using this feature as heavilly as I or just people too lazy to complain. After that, if you still don't want to make few users happy by adding "Show S/H button in MenuBar icon" to Adium Prefferences, what to say?

If it were up to me, about 50% of the functionality we have in Adium would be gone, and almost all preferences would be gone. Just my opinion of course.

This drives me crazy. If you want to make Adium to be iChat with different icon, fine. But I don't think users will agree with that.

You are still arguing I'm the only one who wants this feature back. BUT - would you be so kind and show me these surely hundreds of thankful e-mails from happy users thanking you for removeing specially this feature?

Code: Select all

I wouldn't tell the app dev I'm switching because of xyz functionality if I'm not paying for it, I'd just switch. If it's shareware I'd say that, but if it's freeware they don't need to hear that, just switch but express your discontent in more effective ways.

Ya - I really love this. It's so characteristic for free-app developers. "Are you happy with our app? Great!! Feel free to scream it to whole world. You can write thankful letters, write long articles about how great it is... Are you unhappy? Shut up and go away. We don't want to hear your stupid complains. We are FREE. It means we can do whatever we want. We have no obligations to users"

I think it's pretty stupid opinion.

Posted: **Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:35 pm**

nemo wrote:I don't believe majority needs to have less and less functionality in new versions.

I thought Adium is there for people, who wants more functionality, than standard iChat has.

Adium is support-app. It means that nobody will buy a computer just to use Adium. People buy computers to use some absolutely different programs and they use Adium-like applications together with these main-apps. So Adium team should be focused to make Adium as cooperative as possible. That means people are working in some app and just jumps to Adium for few minutes and then jumps back. And these jumps should be effective. Now, they're not.

I spent too much time trying to explain why this function is importnant. Not just for me, but for others, who don't know about this forum, not using this feature as heavilly as I or just people too lazy to complain. After that, if you still don't want to make few users happy by adding "Show S/H button in MenuBar icon" to Adium Prefferences, what to say?

If it were up to me, about 50% of the functionality we have in Adium would be gone, and almost all preferences would be gone. Just my opinion of course.
This drives me crazy. If you want to make Adium to be iChat with different icon, fine. But I don't think users will agree with that.

You are still arguing I'm the only one who wants this feature back. BUT - would you be so kind and show me these surely hundreds of thankful e-mails from happy users thanking you for removeing specially this feature?
Code: Select all
I wouldn't tell the app dev I'm switching because of xyz functionality if I'm not paying for it, I'd just switch. If it's shareware I'd say that, but if it's freeware they don't need to hear that, just switch but express your discontent in more effective ways.
Ya - I really love this. It's so characteristic for free-app developers. "Are you happy with our app? Great!! Feel free to scream it to whole world. You can write thankful letters, write long articles about how great it is... Are you unhappy? Shut up and go away. We don't want to hear your stupid complains. We are FREE. It means we can do whatever we want. We have no obligations to users"

I think it's pretty stupid opinion.

You read NOTHING that I wrote. I didn't say either of these things, you are PUTTING WORDS INTO MY MOUTH. This is rude.

I said that I'd rip out at least 50% of the functionality, I didn't say I'd make it iChat.

Also, I said I would express my frustration more effectively than by telling the developer that I'm moving to another application. The problem is that when you have a free application, the developer doesn't have as much incentive to keep a user other than just having them. For a shareware app, you're making money on sales, for a freeware application, there is not that. You obviously didn't make this connection before because you just complained about it here, and it leaves me with a lack of confidence about you in general regarding:

a) software development feedback

b) understanding of the software industry.

So, what I said is not what you read apparently. Go reread my ENTIRE post. If you don't get what I said, questions are fine, but assuming what I and then ranting about it and the industry in general is not the way to use these forums effectively.

What would be the point of my even spending the time to type all of that if I meant what you just put. Seriously, think about things instead of assuming we all don't like you, come on now.

I'm not happy with this thread in general, because you guys are basically attacking some intelligent decisions that zac made, and he's the ONLY one who has been maintaining the menu item for a while now. Those menu item theme packs, remember those? That's all him. Making the menu item a first class citizen again? All zac. So please, for God's sake, give him some credit and actually figure out why he doesn't like what you are liking, instead of just sitting here and complaining about things that don't matter.

So, again, you misread, go back and reread.

Posted: **Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:39 pm**

I registered to voice my concern and suggestion about the new menu bar, too. I have several accounts and change some of them to different statuses at different times of day -- setting my work accounts away when I'm not able to talk to co-workers, setting personal counts away when I'm trying to get work finished, etc.

I always found it very useful to have the account status available right from the menubar, and the current setup can be more awkward as the list of accounts often opens to the left of the menu instead of to the right, due to the width of the accounts menu. [Adium is already the farthest left icon in my menubar.]

It would be great if the Accounts submenu could be reintegrated with the main menu -- even if it's only optional.

Posted: **Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:23 pm**

I have to agree with a few people on here, I too am not a fan of the new "Status Menu". I just thought I would voice my opinion also.

Posted: **Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:59 pm**

Another vote for moving accounts back to the top level of the status menu, or at least making it an option.
Thanks for all the hard work!

cocoaforge

1.2: I strongly dislike the new Status Menulet