Enter Button

[dchoby98]

*Points out that Apple did not invent nor standardize the QWERTY layout*
*Points at Dvorak* (q, w, and tab are far, FAR apart)

[SirG3]

Yes, but Apple used QWERY ;-). And they made Q important as only it should be in Star Trek...

-- SirG3

[cbarrett]

Quit does begin with the letter Q....

[bgannin]

And it is more logical than what Windows has... which is what, an F key IIRC?

[SirG3]

Alt-F4 -> but I've NEVER ONCE hit this by accident.

-- SirG3

[bgannin]

I've never hit it intentionally (i.e., 90% of users will never know or find this - let's see how many Mac people don't know Cmmd+Q)

[bobert5064]

They're called carriage returns, btw.

just wanted to clarify that it is a carriage return, feed... so either would be correct

[Arenzera]

I actually found myself wanting one the day I was stuck without a keyboard and had to use keycaps. That was painful.... But I could do it by clicking return on keycaps.

-- SirG3

Why would someone in normal circumstances use a chat program if their keyboard was broken? But wow - that's incredible - I didn't know one could do that! Top work!

Kiel :-)

[Arenzera]

Perhaps a solution to this problem without having an enter key is having dim, grey text (or a Placeholder as Interface Builder calls it) saying "Type a message and press Return" (ideally of course, one could toggle a preference that determines if the placeholder is drawn).

Kiel :-)

[zaudragon]

An enter button will be annoying, especially if Enter and Return keys were made to make a new line.

The official AIM client does this in IM's, and this just über-sux0rz!

[bgannin]

If it's not obvious enough to do that then a person shouldn't likely be using Adium or any other app that functions this way (i.e., nearly all IM apps on Mac)

[LostBurner]

Come to think of it, the word "return" is an amazing relic from typewriter days. I'm guessing, at least, that it means for the "carriage" (the part that moves from left to right and guides the letter into its spot on the page) to return to the left side of the page. Yet, "carriage return" got shortened to "return" and is on all today's keyboards... roughly synonymous with "enter", which is definitely a more apt word for the action.

I still use "carriage return" interchangeably with "newline" though.

Speaking of newlines on typewriters, the "ding" was significant of having 5 characters left before the end of the page, at which point the typist had to decide whether to go to the next line now, or trun-
cate the word between syllables to make it fit.

[danteand]

The argument against it is that a button requires you to take your hand(s) from the keyboard to move the cursor to click the button, whereas supporting Return & Enter keys allows the user to type and send messages without leaving the keyboard.

That argument assumes that the user's hands are on the keyboard, but sometimes the hand is already on the mouse, and not having a send button requires the user to move his or her hand from the mouse back to the keyboard to send a message. That's a trivial movement for most people, but for some disabled users, it takes some effort.

I often drag and drop text or a link into Adium, and then I have to move my hand back to the keyboard to send it. I miss the send button and would like to see it come back as an option. I often use the old Adium 1.6.2c because it has a send button.

[bgannin]

That argument assumes that the user's hands are on the keyboard, but sometimes the hand is already on the mouse, and not having a send button requires the user to move his or her hand from the mouse back to the keyboard to send a message. That's a trivial movement for most people, but for some disabled users, it takes some effort.

I often drag and drop text or a link into Adium, and then I have to move my hand back to the keyboard to send it. I miss the send button and would like to see it come back as an option. I often use the old Adium 1.6.2c because it has a send button.

Accessibility isn't actually the crux of your argument - the movement from mouse to keyboard as annoyance (and personal preference) is, let's establish that. If I seem snarky it is because you've declared not your desire for the feature but a tacked-on reason that is used as justification.

From an accessibility standpoint a disabled user will be using an alternative method of input most likely (be it onscreen keyboard, vocal input or other system) that has support for Return/Enter therein, the same as functionally found when typing on a keyboard. That has nothing to do with mouse movement. A severely disabled user may not even use a mouse to manipulate the cursor and operate solely through a keyed interface method controlled by an adapted device (pointing stick, shorthand keyboard, et.all) - so how does adding a send button for after drags aid this user (or a blind user using a spoken interface)?

[cosmosheep]

What we need is:

Code: Select all

Messages: [ ] Send on 'Enter'
          [ ] Send on 'Return'
          [ ] Send on 'Telepathic Command'

By all means yes, yes! Mind controled computers - or would the computer be controling your mind?

[danteand]

Accessibility isn't actually the crux of your argument - the movement from mouse to keyboard as annoyance (and personal preference) is, let's establish that. If I seem snarky it is because you've declared not your desire for the feature but a tacked-on reason that is used as justification.

I thought I did declare my desire for the feature, and my reason for it. I said "I miss the send button and would like to see it come back as an option."

I understand that an application can't have every feature any user might want because it gets bloated, complex and confusing. I would also understand the argument "the number of people who want the feature is too small to justify the amount of work it would take to add it." But it seems like you are implying that to want that feature is to be using your computer incorrectly.

From an accessibility standpoint a disabled user will be using an alternative method of input most likely (be it onscreen keyboard, vocal input or other system) that has support for Return/Enter therein, the same as functionally found when typing on a keyboard. That has nothing to do with mouse movement. A severely disabled user may not even use a mouse to manipulate the cursor and operate solely through a keyed interface method controlled by an adapted device (pointing stick, shorthand keyboard, et.all) - so how does adding a send button for after drags aid this user (or a blind user using a spoken interface)?

Having a send button option would not aid someone who used a soley keyed interface. It also would not hinder them in any way I can think of.

But it's not safe to make those assumptions about disabled users. Not all disabled users have adapted equipment. Sometimes a disabled person will be using a computer that is not their own, and isn't adapted at all. And there are many disabilities, many assistive devices, and many different ways to use them. Some of those may require some action to switch between mouse mode and keyboard mode.

I'll give you my own case as an example. I have a one handed keyboard (Twiddler) on a laptop to use at my bed, so I don't use a send button as much with that, though I do sometimes, and it can save a keystroke if I'm already in mouse mode. When I am not in bed, if I am not using ventilatory support, I usually have only one hand available for the computer, and that is usually on the trackball. And it's not trivial to move my hand back and forth from the middle of the keyboard, to the trackball. If I am using ventilatory support, I can have both hands on the keyboard, and in that case, it is easier to switch back and forth since my hand is closer to the edge of the keyboard, but it's still not trivial, so I use the trackball much less.

If I'm dragging and dropping text into a message window, without a send button, I have to go back to the keyboard to send. That is an annoyance, and it is my personal preference to not have to do it. That annoyance is made more significant by my physical limitations.

In a way, it seems similar to the close, minimize and maximize buttons on the top of each window. Those buttons require users to take their hands away from the keyboard, and one could use command W and command M instead. But if a user is manipulating windows, they may already have their hand on the mouse. In a GUI enviroment, I would argue that the best of all possible worlds is to give the user both options and let them decide which to use.

I also missed having a "go" button in Safari (until I realized the reload button will work like the "go" button in IE).

[lordoftheoats]

Very good argument. I have changed my mind - maybe it should be an option.

[bgannin]

I thought I did declare my desire for the feature, and my reason for it. I said "I miss the send button and would like to see it come back as an option."

I understand that an application can't have every feature any user might want because it gets bloated, complex and confusing. I would also understand the argument "the number of people who want the feature is too small to justify the amount of work it would take to add it." But it seems like you are implying that to want that feature is to be using your computer incorrectly.

Having a send button option would not aid someone who used a soley keyed interface. It also would not hinder them in any way I can think of.

I am not implying anything - please don't read into my typing, it has no emotion or intention, only characters trying to articulate a point. My statement quoted was to say that you find a preference and feature needed, great - I didn't feel that you were actually arguing an accessibility standpoint, simply using it as a justification for why your feature (Enter button) should return.

While I am not disagreeing with anything you've posted this preference would add a bit of confusion for some users in that they will see a preference for a "Send" button and think they can't, for some reason, actually send messages until this button is enabled when in actuality the current behavior would all still be there.

Not surprisingly many users will just freak out or call a product crippled (no pun intended) without reading the manual to see if their assumptions are correct. That said, it is a debatable issue in that sense being that are likely valid reasons. But, as you can (hopefully) see, it generates a lot of debate and discussion never killed anybody (last I checked)

[danteand]

I didn't feel that you were actually arguing an accessibility standpoint, simply using it as a justification for why your feature (Enter button) should return.

I don't understand the distinction. I think it is more accessible, and I was using that as a justification. I'm still not sure if you're convinced that it is an accessibility issue, but in my experience, annoyance, personal preference and accessibility have a lot of overlap.

Sometimes I'll use my computer 30 minutes or an hour without touching the keyboard. I might read my email, read news, browse around, run commands in terminal by dragging and dropping from a text document, adjust and crop images in photoshop, etc. If someone IMs me, I can select their "hello", drag it to the send window, and click the send button. If they ask how I'm doing, I might have an old chat window open where I already answered the question to someone else, so I can drag the answer from that window, and click send. Then if they say something important that I need to type a response to, I can put on the vent, put my hands on the keyboard, and then maybe not touch the mouse again for 30 minutes.

It's not that I can't switch to the keyboard, it's that it takes more effort to do it than it would for most people. An IM client without a send button is not inaccessible, but one with a send button is more accessible. It's a little bit like the bump that the threshold between two rooms sometimes makes. Most people don't even notice it, and if I'm using a wheelchair, I can easily roll over it. But if I'm sitting in my office chair, which is more comfortable, I can barely get the wheels over that bump, so I rarely go between those two rooms. That bump doesn't make the house inaccessible, but the house would be more accessible if it wasn't there.

While I am not disagreeing with anything you've posted this preference would add a bit of confusion for some users in that they will see a preference for a "Send" button and think they can't, for some reason, actually send messages until this button is enabled when in actuality the current behavior would all still be there.

I agree, almost every preference adds some potential for confusion, and it can be cumulative, so you have to draw the line somewhere.

If there ever was such a preference for turning on "send button", it could be in the Advanced tab, maybe under Messages, Window Preferences, Show send button. I'd guess that the majority of users who might assume the app is broken without the send button are probably not the kind of users who would poke around in Advanced prefs (but the users who like Adium and send buttons probably would).

For a long time I've sporadically looked around the faqs and fora for any information on the fate of the send button and I began to think I was the only person who missed it. I was happy to see there was a least one other person who was interested in it (though it sounds like I missed some previous discussions).

[bgannin]

Distinction:

1) Personal preference/justification - defined by your opinion, environment, and challenges... subjective is the key here
2) Accessibility - defined by observation and metrics and established principles and research... objective is the key here

I've not yet made my mind up on whether I feel it is a justified accessibility point, but I am pondering. The distinction I keep raising is that you are arguing for an objective point using entirely subjective facts and reasoning.

I respect the fact that you yourself are in a situation requiring accessibility considerations and that you are sharing what you feel will better aid your in accessing your computer, I'm just not convinced it's an argument that applies for increasing overall accessibility for every user with a challenge of some form. If it is a widespread issue - do you address this with developers of other IM clients (AIM, Proteus, iChat, Fire, et.all) that do support this so that all users requiring accessibility have support and choice, or just this client in this debate so you no longer have the inconvenience?

A user who considers a client 'broken' because it does not support what they expect is in for a much larger surprise then simply lack of a button they feel they need - a product is designed to be useful to potentially thousands and as such will not ever meet every user's expectations and desires and to expect that is to invite disappointment. In such a utopian world everything would likely in the end be subsumed by the OS, as in the end users don't trust developers outside the OS since "they [Apple or other OS vendor] built it, it must work good if they made it [any product]." [which is faulty logic, but who am I to argue]

Indeed, before the forums moved, there was an even longer thread discussing the pros and cons. We have restarted it again and added accessibility to the debate this time, so it rages ever on.